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Tuesday 9 January 2018

CHARLATAN DEREK PRINCE: DEMONS AND CURSES!

Pentecostal minister Derek Prince operated in the pseudo ministry of deliverance and demonology during the late 1900's. In his vanity, Prince rejected the use of the term "demon possessed", falsely claiming that it was a mistranslation due to its implication of "ownership". He then proceeded to redefine and water-down "demoniac" to "demonize", a word that is unknown in the scriptures. Demonize comes from Medieval Latin: to be subject to the influence of demons.. from Medieval Latin daemonizāre, equivalent to Late Latin daemon demon + -izāre -ize {1} Having borrowed the spurious general category "demonize" from Medieval Latin, Prince taught that non-Christians, and also the majority of Christians are demonized.

Lie No 1: A demon cannot "possess” a non-Christian.
Lie No 2: The majority of committed Christians are "demonized" i.e. they can be indwelt by demons.
Lie No 3: Many Christians come under ancestral curses, going back hundreds or even thousands of years.

Derek Prince: "Three different Greek expressions normally used to describe the influence of demons:
1. To have an unclean/evil spirit. See Matt. 11:18; Mark 7:25; 9:17; Luke 4:33; 8:27; 13:11; John 7:20; 8:48–49, 52; 10:20–21.
2. To be in an unclean/evil spirit (Modern English—to be under the influence of) See Mark 1:23; 5:2. 3. To be demonized. KJV incorrectly translates to be “possessed with devils.” There is nothing in the Greek to support the word “possessed,” which is completely misleading. See Matt. 4:24; 8:16, 28, 33; 9:32; 12:22; 15:22; Mark 1:32; 5:15, 16, 18; Luke 8:36."
{2}


Prince's three classifications above are completely bogus. In particular, the Greek verb δαιμονίζομαι, English demoniac, translates: I am demon-possessed. Definition: I am possessed, am under the power of an evil-spirit or demon.{3} Prince's statement that the Greek does not support "possessed" is completely false. Not only Strong's Greek 1139, but ALL the accepted Greek dictionaries and lexicons define δαιμονίζομαι in exactly the same way:

BAGD “be possessed by a demon”

EDNT, ed. Balz & Schneider, 1:274 “be possessed by a demon”
LSJ “to be possessed by a demon”
Louw-Nida, 1:147 (§12.41) “to be possessed by a demon”
NIDNTT, ed. Brown, 1:453 “be possessed by a demon”
TDNT, ed. Kittel, 2:19 “To be possessed by a demon”
UBS Greek Dictionary “to be demon possessed” {4} 

1. To have (ἔχω) a demon as in Matthew 11:18; Mark 7:25; 9:17; Luke 4:33; 8:27; 13:11; John 7:20; 8:48–49, 52; 10:20–21.

The Greek verb in question is ἔχω = I have, hold, possess {5} 

The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have (ἔχεις) a demon! (John 8:52).

Other examples:

And the same John had (εἶχεν) his raiment of camel's hair.. (Matthew 3:4).
We have (ἔχομεν) Abraham as our father.. (Matthew 3:9).
I have (ἔχω) the keys of Death and Hades. (Revelation 1:18).

ἐκβάλλω = to expel, to drive, cast or send out. {6} 
ἐξέρχομαι: to go or come out of . {7} 

And someone from the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has (ἔχοντα) a spirit that makes him mute. And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out (ἐκβάλωσιν), and they were not able.” And he answered them, “O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.” And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. And Jesus asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” And Jesus said to him, “‘If you can’! All things are possible for one who believes.” Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!” And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out (ἔξελθε) of him and never enter him again.” And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, “He is dead.” But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?” And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.” Mark 9:17-29). 

2.
Mark 1:23; 5:2. "..a man with an unclean spirit."

And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent, and come out of him (ἔξελθε)!” And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying out with a loud voice, came out of him (ἐξῆλθεν). (Mark 1:23-26). ..And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain, for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was always crying out and cutting himself with stones. (Mark 5:3-5).

Notably, the demons, not the man responded to Jesus in both cases:

“What do You want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us?( Mark 1:24)
“My name is Legion, for we are many.” (Mark 5:9).


3. ..they brought him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, those oppressed by demons (demoniacs), those having seizures, and paralytics, and he healed them. (Matthew 4:24). Other translations have "demon possessed".

We are not given specific details in every instance, but the context in all the examples that Prince gives is that of control/possession as in δαιμονίζομαι, demoniac.

Further weight is added to the argument against Prince's eisegesis, in that the New Testament gives no example of a Christian having been inhabited by a demon, or having a demon "cast out”. In fact such a thing is an impossibility since Christ has delivered genuine converts to Christianity from the domain of darkness and transferred them to the kingdom of his beloved Son. (Colossians 1:13). Furthermore, true believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. (1 John 4:4). A Christian may be tempted, deceived and harassed by a demon/demons from without, but he/she does not need to be “delivered” by some strange occult formula based on spurious translations from the Greek invented by Derek Prince!

Further Evidence:


δαιμονίζομαι; 1 aorist passive participle δαιμονισθείς; (δαίμων); to be under the power of a demon: ἄλλος κατ' ἄλλην δαιμονίζεται τυχην, Philemon 1 in Stobaeus, ecl. phys. 1, p. 196; of the insane, Plutarch, symp. 7, 5, 4, and in other later authors. In the N. T. δαιμονιζόμενοι are persons afflicted with especially severe diseases, either bodily or mental (such as paralysis, blindness, deafness, loss of speech, epilepsy, melancholy, insanity, etc.), whose bodies in the opinion of the Jews demons (see δαιμόνιον) had entered, and so held possession of them as not only to afflict them with ills, but also to dethrone the reason and take its place themselves; accordingly, the possessed were accustomed to express the mind and consciousness of the demons dwelling in them; and their cure was thought to require the expulsion of the demon — (but on this subject see B. D. American edition under the word Demoniacs and references there; Weiss, Leben Jesu, book iii., chapter 6): Matthew 4:24; Matthew 8:16, 28, 33; Matthew 9:32; Matthew 12:22; Matthew 15:22; Mark 1:32; Mark 5:15; John 10:21; δαιμονισθείς, that had been possessed by a demon (demons), Mark 5:18; Luke 8:36. They are said also to be ὀχλούμενοι ὑπό or ἀπό πνευμάτων ἀκαθάρτων, Luke 6:18 (T Tr WH ἐνοχλούμενοι); Acts 5:16; καταδυναστευόμενοι ὑπό τοῦ διαβόλου, i. e. by his ministers, the demons, Acts 10:38. {3}

Ancestral Curses?

Prince claimed that many Christians come under generational curses, "going back hundreds or even thousands of years". {8} This outrageous claim is completely demolished by the scriptures:

Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations.. (Deuteronomy 7:9 cf. Deuteronomy 5:9-10).

Those who have not accepted Jesus Christ may very well be under an ancestral curse/curses, but even if this is the case, God's mercy is such that retrospective curses are not effective for more than three or four generations, much less thousands of years! A generation in human terms typically ranges from 22 to 32 years.{9} An ancestral curse is therefore not effectual for longer than 128 years at the most (Numbers 14:18).

..for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.. (Deuteronomy 5:9 cf. Exodus 34:7).

Curses apply to those that hate God, not to Christians! Prince argued not from the scriptures, which are silent on the matter, rather he brought examples from his own subjective experience and various "words from the Lord", in order to attach believers to the various Old Testament curses laid out in Deuteronomy. The Deuteronomy curses were pronounced by the Levitical priests and were to be set up on Mount Ebal after the Israelites had entered the promised land. The future curses pronounced were the inevitable result turning away from God and breaking the law of Moses.  Moses made no reference either to residual curses left from the time the Israelites spent in slavery in Egypt, or the generation that sinned and died in the wilderness. (Numbers 32:13; Hebrews 3:17). I am referring to types and shadows in the OT (I Corinthians 10:11), i.e. Egypt is a type of sin; Pharaoh is a type of Satan. Deliverance from Egypt was complete once Israel came through the Red Sea: For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall never see again. (Exodus 14:13).

As already stated, Prince goes back thousands of years, not three or four generations. Secondly, we are speaking specifically about curses upon the Israelites, not NT believers. Thirdly, all who rely on works of the law are under a curse - this obviously excludes NT believers. (Galatians 3:10). At Sinai, Moses sprinkled the blood of animals on the altar and upon the people who entered into covenant with God. (Exodus 24: 3-8). Once the Israelites entered into the covenant at Sinai, what God required was obedience. Since we are to make parallels with the Israelites as believers, then we must concede that once the Israelites came out of Egypt, ancestral curses were non existent. The New Testament identifies the problem: their hearts turned back to Egypt (Acts 7:9; cf. Deuteronomy 30:17). Similarly if we disobey the Law of Christ i.e. the New Testament commandments (John 13:34), then inevitably, there will be consequences (1 Corinthians 10:11). Notice that the key is obedience, forgetting those things that lie behind and straining forward to what lies ahead.(Philippians 3:13). When we do fail for any reason, then we need to repent. The unbiblical machinations of Derek Prince threaten to undermine faith and destroy our peace in Christ and cause us go backwards into bondage, curses, death and darkness!

Satan is in the business of sowing doubt and unbelief! God has not placed heavy burdens upon believers concerning the effect of sins committed in past generations! On the contrary! 
THE TRUTH: Anyone who has genuine faith in Jesus Christ is transformed into a new creation upon conversion: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 6:4 cf. Isaiah 43:18; Ezekiel 36:26). If any ancestral curses did exist before we were converted, the moment we were born again they were obliterated.. we passed from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God (Acts 26:18). Believers have no remit to go digging around in the past looking for ancestral curses! Jesus Christ has blessed true believers with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3 cf. Philippians 3:13). Can a person be blessed and cursed at the same time? The flesh and the world also play their part when Christians experience problems, but ancestral curses are never given as a cause for difficulties in the New Testament. (Luke 4:18; John 8:32-36; Romans 8:2).

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— (Galatians 3:13).

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)  Can those who have become righteous through Christ's obedience be under a curse?

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.. (Ephesians 1:3). Can Christians be blessed and cursed at the same time?

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-14)

The question of ancestral curses is completely demolished when we realise that under the new covenant Christians follow Jesus Christ and that He superseded the Law. We should understand that God calls believers to faithfully follow His Word, and that there are consequences, even curses for apostasy and disobedience
. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9). Ironically, in preaching a gospel contrary to the scriptures, Prince himself would have been under a self inflicted curse.

Prince's false teachings are aimed at seriously undermining the faith of Christians. Just as those who infiltrated the church at Galatia, pseudo "deliverance ministries" come to spy out the freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into bondage.(Galatians 2:4).

Derek Prince was either a deceiver or he had no knowledge of the subject in which professed to be an "expert", as demonstrated by his inability to translate the Greek δαιμονίζομαι correctly, and his reversion to Old Testament curses which have no practical application to the new covenant. In addition, Prince's "heavy shepherding" fiasco really does highlight that he was operating in the flesh and not in the Spirit. This despicable false teacher caused devastating problems in the lives of many believers throughout his alleged "ministry". Tragically, Derek Prince Ministries continues to distribute his false teachings and trains missionaries, church leaders, and congregations through the outreaches of more than thirty DPM offices around the world. {10} Beware of these lethal false teachings. {11}

We can finally put to bed any idea that Derek Prince was a genuine bible teacher when we discover his early betrayal and his involvement with the Vatican:

Early Betrayal: In 1974 the founders of the Shepherding Movement aka the Fort Lauderdale Five (FL5) formed a secret council and an ecumenical alliance. In 1977 the FL5 secretly met Cardinal Suenens in Israel where they made a joint covert declaration to work together for the restoration of the unity of the Church. The council agreed to relate directly to Cardinal Suenens and to consult him before planning or implementing projects, evangelism, etc. In other words, the FL5 sold out and capitulated to Vatican control.

The General Council Minutes of The “Ft. Lauderdale” Elders makes very interesting reading! This document was obstructed and suppressed for a long time for obvious reasons: “The fuller picture is how these men wove themselves into a multi-apostasy which includes the RCC, the mother of whores.” {12}

The suggestion that ancestral curses have to be dealt with in an extrabiblical manner by some charismatic curse-buster or guru is to declare that the cross alone is deficient. 

This post was written to further enlarge upon the ongoing discussion in the comments of my original post: 
DEREK PRINCE FALSE TEACHER WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING!!!
See also: THE CURSE OF DEREK PRINCE FALSE TEACHER!!!
https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/the-curse-of-derek-prince.html 

36 comments:

  1. Ah yes, Derek Prince. Years ago he was the featured celebrity one evening at a church in a high crime area of a major US city. My wife and I watched closely as Prince tugged on a leg of a reclining man and soon announced that he had somehow lengthened the leg which reportedly had been considerably shorter than the other leg. The only thing that evening which stands out in our memory that was certainly "demonic" happened when the meeting was over and we approached our car outside and discovered to our horror that someone in the 'hood had broken a side window, crawled inside, and had stolen a movie camera and the car's stereo radio. We cannot testify that a certain man at that meeting had had a short leg, but we can testify that we ended up being short one camera and one radio! Am wondering if anyone else has ever attended a Prince "leg growing" performance.

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  2. I have attended a "leg growing" performance... not Derek Prince though. It is rather too close to home to relate it here Irv. How do they do that trick do you know? God bless.

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    1. Hey Treena, I've seen the documentary called: "American Gospel"; In this documentary they show Todd White doing the "leg trick". They expose how they do it, overall I believe the documentary is worth the watch for many; it exposes a lot of the false charismatic movement.

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    2. Todd White is a charlatan ~ his latest message is appalling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_P0sQRYslw
      God bless.

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    3. Hi, when you sit on a chair and move your hip backward on one side, your leg appears shorter. Then you move the hip forward, and your leg "grows" forward. Pretty base trick. God bless you.

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  3. Sorry, Treena, but I don't have a leg up on that question (lol). Seriously, I don't have a Pentecostal or charismatic background, so I have to rely on others who are more expert than I am in such matters. I still don't know if truly shortened legs have literally been healed, as reported in certain circles. At the same time I know that the Lord's hand is never shortened and that He has all power. God bless you too.

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  4. Well, Irv, I DO "have a Pentecostal or charismatic background" as you call it, and the Pentecostal outfit that I was part of were heavily into DPMs teachings to the point where it became not what the Bible says, but "what does Derek say about this and that?"! I speak from experience, as I was there for a little over two years witnessing and participating in all sorts of nonsense! As for "healing and deliverance" I thank the Lord that I got delivered from it all, that He showed me what is known as the "Pentecostal Error".
    The worst part of it all apart from the false teachings, some of which Treena writes about in her excellent article, was the spirit of control that the leadership tried to put us all under.

    The problem with the so-called "healing and deliverance ministries" is that many keep going back to their guru for a new fix! Once in Christ, you are forever healed and delivered. To cut a long treatise short, this is basically what the doctrine of imputation is all about, it is a legal transaction. His believing people have been purchased by His blood (Acts 20.28). Pentecostalism sort of invokes the Roman idea of impartation, that we can somehow be perfect this side of eternity-a grand delusion forever shattered by rightly handling the word of truth. I could add more in regards to pre-destination/sovereignty of God, but this may appear to be going off topic, for example, WHY was the man born blind in John 9?

    The subject of angelology/demonology is a very difficult one to fully understand, if indeed it can be, but it is not helped by the false teachings of DPM.
    As regards the "Pentecostal Error", I have absolutely no doubt that some Pentecostal churches may be more moderate than the one I fellowshipped in, but nevertheless, they should ask themselves what it is in their theology that gives rise to the so-called charismatic excesses.
    God bless
    Colin.

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  5. Some points:

    1) Good article but I don't really understand what is the distinction between being posessed and only being demonized in DPs theology. It would be good to clarify this.

    2) "Leg pulling", probably where we got the saying from in some revival time, is a fake demonstration of healing. There are videos of Torben Sondergaard (The last reformation fame) doing it on Youtube with a critical commentator explaining each step of the deception he is performing on the street. Quite easy really.

    3) What is the best source information about the heresy of DP?

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  6. As I see it "the distinction between being POSESSED and ONLY being demonized" is that in the former a demon is RESIDENT in your tabernacle (body) and in the latter you are being LED ASTRAY by a demonic lie (all lies are demonic!). The first and most notable example being Eve in the garden! Clearly she wasn't possessed, but nevertheless was "in the transgression" 1 Tim 2.14.

    Regards this "leg pulling" how people are deceived by these David Copperfield types is beyond me! Clearly they have no fear of God when they KNOW they are deceiving folk, especially in the name of Jesus!

    Best "source information"? KJV1611!

    God bless.

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  7. Prince made the distinction that "demon possessed" implies ownership, whereas "demonized" is demonic oppression even though the demon/s indwell a person (there is no such word as "demonized" in the scriptures). The Greek verb δαιμονίζομαι English demoniac, translation is indisputably "demon-possessed". Prince based his whole ministry of "deliverance" on the faulty definition of this one verb: δαιμονίζομαι and threw in some "experiences" and "words from the Lord" for good measure!
    My research mainly focused upon Prince himself and Derek Prince Ministries, although I have read quite extensively about him elsewhere. There are YouTube videos and books of his around that make it easy to go to the source of the problem.. and to compare his eisegeses with the scriptures.
    There is a rare photo of Prince/the FL5 with Cardinal Suenens at the Ecumenical Council at Jerusalem in 1977 on the following link:
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I1StAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=derek+prince+Cardinal+Suenens&source=bl&ots=hRSsostTJg&sig=RLdv4lTU93kHgl1_r4m9Or6SpSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg48bgw8_YAhUP_qQKHazQDbAQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=derek%20prince%20Cardinal%20Suenens&f=false
    God bless you Mike.

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  8. Forgot to put my name on the last post-signed on Google now-getting to be more of a rigmarole these days! Passwords, phone texts, photos etc., anyone would think I am trying to infiltrate GCHQ!

    DP was supposed to be a Hebrew and Greek scholar, true? If so, it shows that it doesn't mean their theology is trustworthy, a bit like the Pharisees of old!
    God bless.

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  9. Thanks for the link. The whole book looks quite interesting.

    How would DP differentiate the difference between being oppressed and being owned say in the case of the Gerasene Demoniac (Luke 8)? Can he make any case for the incredible strength of a demonised person who is only oppressed? or that the demoniac does not have control of his own body? For an intelligent man, it is hard to see how he could justify his position on this - I suspect some other belief of his drove him to do bend the scriptures at this point but I have no idea what was the cause.

    Leg pulling - two of my very sincere friends take a strong stand on the scriptures, yet both of them believe firmly in the leg pulling miracle. They are disappointed that I don't agree, and I guess we feel like shaking our heads at each other in disbelief on this issue. I learned from them that the this "miracle" is even worse and less comprehensible than I originally thought. They believe that the leg can be healed one day and can revert back some other day due to sin, and then need healing again. It boggles my mind to think any Christian can believe this nonsense but they do.

    For me an issue like this limits the depth of fellowship that is possible between us, as there is always the fear of other nonsensical things coming up. Yet their faithfulness, even under extreme persecution (I can't share details) is clear to see.

    So it is hard to reconcile what Anonymous says "they have no fear of God" with the men that I know. It is too simple to try to explain it like this, and we need to consider more deeply how so many of our dear brothers and sisters can accept delusional things so easily. In my view they have a faulty concept of God and the way He works in the world. It is a view that trivialises God's relationship with mankind, and in some way needs "signs" as a confirmation of faith, and proof that God still does miracles today.

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  10. You are right about the Gerasene Demoniac Mike. When we are born again we pass from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Jesus Christ... In effect we have come under the dominion of Jesus Christ as against the dominion of Satan.. the phrases: "slaves of sin" "slaves of righteousness" in Romans 6 is very expressive of "ownership" I think?

    For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Romans 6:20

    God bless

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  11. I have managed to find a copy of the Meeting Minutes of the Fort Lauderdale Ecumenical Council 1974-1977:

    https://www.scribd.com/document/56951091/Meeting-Minutes-of-THE-COUNCIL-1974-1977

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  12. Mike, my grammar failed me, I think!
    I was making the point that if we believe these miracles are not kosher as most here don't, (but here speaks a cessationist!) then I was saying that it is the perpetrators that "have no fear of God" not those being beguiled by them!
    The Scriptures warn us in too many places against being deceived, and sadly the deceived may end up in the same place as the deceiver Matthew 15.14.
    I was looking at an object the other day, I kept looking at it and it was convex to my eyes, yet I had to physically touch it to realise it was actually concave!

    God bless
    Colin Ford.

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  13. Hi Colin.

    No problem. I also take a cessationist position but I find that it is not usually understood so I don't use the term very often.

    When it comes to miracles, this term is also misunderstood and used for any kind of event that may possibly be a work of God. We of course pray for healing and do so because we know God has the power to heal. When a person recovers, then we thank God, but it is incorrect to call it a miracle. I would attribute many things in my life to God's interventions or acts, but none of them could be called miracles.

    John 9:24-34 is a great example of what miracles are:
    "Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind"

    With a miracle there is no doubt, and it points to the one who performed the miracle. It says something about Him.

    False signs and wonders can't do these things.

    Best regards,

    Mike

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  14. Mike, certainly, I agree with you that "this term is also misunderstood" (cessationism); I believe, as it seems you also do, that ALL the miracles written in God's Book are events that actually, and really happened.
    Today, if we break a leg or whatever, we all have the faith to believe that in the process of time it will heal and we will walk again (a now common place 'miracle'). But, if we were to lose a leg, do we have the faith that it will grow again? I think not! But these charlatans under discussion who would fain make us believe that a leg can grow back and forth depending upon whether we sin or no is simply beyond the pale!
    Miracles, wonderful as they surely are as described in God's Book, did not of themselves convict the Israelites of old; for would we not like to think that if we were there, that witnessing the drying up of the Red Sea (Exodus 14) would have stopped us from murmuring against God in Christ? Yet the NT tells us in no uncertain terms that "the Jews require a sign" 1 Corinthians 1.22; then, are these "signs and wonders" people today any better than the unbelieving Jews of old? Matthew 12.39 unequivocally answers this!

    Yes, the blind man in John 9 was ONLY placed in THAT position to glorify God in Christ.

    As for "false signs and wonders"; can the elect be deceived? not according to the Saviour's words in Matthew 24.24.

    God bless
    Colin Ford.

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  15. Hi Colin.

    I agree with almost all you say, but I also believe that there is supernatural healing when God chooses to do so, otherwise why would we pray for the sick. Nevertheless, it is all of God's grace and not at the whims of miracle workers. Such acts of God may be surprising and life changing but since they could also be explained in a natural if improbable way, they are not miracles.

    I suspect you agree with this.

    //Mike

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  16. Wow, I feel like I've just taken the first class in "Demons and Curses 101" !

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  17. Thank you Irv... I think there is much more to learn though. These false teachers can be caught out at very basic levels once we look to the scriptures alone... Sola Scriptura.
    God bless you.

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  18. Mike, I believe we are singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak.

    Certainly, you are correct, what right minded Christian wouldn't pray for a sick relative, friend etc.? Although I believe that EVERYTHING that happens is shut up in the eternal counsels of God in Christ (pre-destination/election sovereignty of God, doctrines of God's grace/Calvinism so-called), in other words, we are not robots or fatalists, we ARE responsible creatures! Just for one 'little' example, I wouldn't want to be in Bill Gates shoes on judgment Day when Gates THEN comes to the realisation (unless he repents and believes) that he was ONLY a 'puppet' used by God, as Pharaoh (Romans 9.17)! To bring "His strange work, and bring to pass His act, His strange act" Isaiah 28.21. For it can be seen that God needed people such as Gates, Bezos, Zuckerberg, Trump and the rest to bring "His strange work..to pass"! for such are mentioned in Revelation 6.15-17.

    As the subject under discussion is Derek Prince and his teachings that live on, though he be dead, it must be remembered that he believed in on-going revelation, a big part of the Pentecostal error, that God is giving on-going new revelation to His believing people! No! God's Book is ALL we need, He speaks to us through His written word; who "hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son..." Hebrews 1.2. the canon of Scripture is now CLOSED. Any of what we may think to be a "supernatural healing when God chooses to do so.." as you say, was pre-destined, otherwise how could have the Lamb "been slain from the foundation of the world", or how is it that there is a "book of life" with "names" in it, and why would have Jesus "chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil"?

    These are all very deep things, no doubt, but they ARE all in God's Book!

    I was in fellowship in a Pentecostal church that was very HEAVILY under Derek Prince's influence, and when I said that I had "issues" the pastor requested a meeting at our house with an elder (we previously had weekly home group meetings at our house). He let rip! He pranced about the place saying we had all sorts of wicked spirits in us, he really, really upset my wife, she was in tears, terribly upset (he said she had "the spirit of gluttony" because she was not thin!) I found it hard to restrain myself. For about two or more weeks afterward we were subject to letter drops with DPM's 'teachings', they even dropped many DPM materials at my business address to show me the 'error of my ways'! When I post here about DPM, it isn't hearsay, I speak the truth in Christ. I was in the thick of it! I have never before, or since experienced such a spirit of control. This reminds me of the spirit of Hotel California-"You can check out anytime you like. But you can never leave!" We made several 'friends' in that place, so we thought, but when we subsequently tried to keep in contact with them we were always given the cold-shoulder. Such is life.

    As you so rightly say "it is all of God's grace", for He "is upholding all things by the word of His power" Hebrews 1.3.

    God bless

    Colin Ford.

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  19. Hi Colin,

    The reason I searched for something on DP was because it has been on my mind for 30 years to find out what he was really about. Unlike the faith movement, where there are lots of books, videos and articles, I didn't find much on DP, not enough to start digging without first having to listen to all his stuff. Another on on my list is Fruchtenbaum, another dispensationalist of sorts with his own version of the gap theory, but almost nothing I can find apart from his gap theory. Pawson is another.

    One of the things that I have seen, somewhat surprising I suppose, is that many Christians today who understand the doctrines of grace, and seek to dig deeply into the scriptures, became Christians through the Charismatic movement (perhaps also the Restorationists - as you were). Many have been leaders in it and learned the hard way, and some of them have been broken, and permanently damaged, but still able to rejoice in the Lord and teach from the scriptures. Some Bible believing churches have had rehabilitation courses for those coming out of the spiritual mess, but they are few an far between. Some who started as evangelical (sort of reformed) and then became charismatic, and then got broken, and tried to go back, could not settle.

    Some of those who came out have found it hard to understand what their spiritual experiences really were and they will perhaps never find satisfactory explanations. The experience of spiritual manifestations leaves a deep mark, and the ecstatic worship is hard to replace.

    The modern worship-entertainment industry is quite good at meeting the needs of those who enjoy ecstatic worship. As mystical groups have sought the enlightenment over thousands of years, each individual wants his/her experience of it even if he has to whip himself, climb a mountain in his bare feet or something else extreme, the revival/Pentecostal/Charismatic/Restorationist people at least believed they had a genuine spiritual experience - the worshiptainment industry has been able to turn it on like a tap. Much as LSD gave quick access to the mystical experience (no more waiting) in the 60's, the worship music gets there fast and delivers.

    The fact that the same experience is common in all realms of music doesn't seem to matter. If it is Christian music then the mystical experience is of the Holy Spirit, otherwise it is of the Unholy Spirit. The same with tongues - if it is Mormon tongues then it is of the Devil.

    It is perhaps as you say about Pharaoh and others, that this movement was of God after all, not any third wave nonsense (not even any second wave), but a wake up call to the church to go out with the gospel and teach the Bible in the churches, or else the lampstand would be removed.

    //Mike


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  20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpz_9_KalFY

    This is a link showing how the leg pulling scam works. I forgot to add it earlier. Please note the street healer video recommended in the demonstration itself.

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  21. That is a real eye opener Mike.. The one I witnessed was slightly different, but I have no doubt that it was also a trick. The "faith healer" involved said that the back problem would be completely resolved in three days, but it was not. The person on the receiving end was not a Christian, in fact he was extremely hostile to my faith.. this episode made him harden his heart even further. God bless.

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  22. The following is an extract from a link below.

    -------
    Is It Ever Real?
    Absolutely! There are many people out there who have had to throw away their therapeutic platform shoe and buy some regular sneakers simply because their leg truly did grow. I once saw a woman who had been impaired all her life because Polio had stunted the growth of one leg when she was a child, and the Lord supernaturally stretched her leg out to the same length as the other one, allowing her to walk normally.
    When we were filming our movie, Paid in Full, one of our interview subjects told us how his girlfriend — now wife — used to have one leg an inch shorter than the other. When they told it to grow, it actually grew two inches, making it an inch longer than the other leg. The guy ministering said, “Well, do you want to be taller or shorter?”
    “Taller!” she answered.
    And then the other leg grew out to match the first one. The best part of the story, though, is that she’s now legitimately an inch taller than she used to be, and her medical records and driver’s license testify to it!

    http://supernaturaltruth.com/leg-lengthening-real-or-fake-growing-legs-out/
    -------

    I have looked into this question a bit more today and it seems that this leg-pulling miracle was popular amongst some (not all) early Restorationist such as George Tarleton in the 70s. It was later practised by Wimber in the 80's and is still practised by Virgo today, amongst others. I am sure it goes back much earlier.

    As you can see from the positive testimony above, the most troubling thing is that so many believers think this is how God would do things. That their level of discernment is so low. Their God is so ridiculous.

    Some of Virgo's leg-pulling can be understood from the following comment:

    My cousin came to me after, he said Terry had prayed for him and his leg grew out and that he had insoles and didn’t think he needed them any more. I told him how grieved I was by this whole sharade, I sat him down and did the whole thing again for him showing him how easily I could trick him into thinking his newly grown leg was too short again or too long. That was two years ago and my cousin still has bad feet and needs insoles.

    https://aremonstrantsramblings.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/terry-virgo-leg-lengthening-miracle-or-parlour-trick/


    //Mike

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  23. There is much to be gleaned from Mike's comment.

    "Their God is so ridiculous." And so true it is, for many would create their OWN God of the Holy Bible to fit their theology. These 'teachers' do indeed create a god of their own making, is it any wonder the Saviour uttered those most awful and fearful words in Matthew 7.21-23?

    Virgo believes in apostolic succession, that the miraculous gifts haven't ceased, that they are for today. Yet he tells us he believes the canon of Scripture is complete! It truly baffles me that many sincere believers don't reject the silly notion that the miraculous apostolic gifts are not for today. The inspired apostle left Trophimus "at Miletum sick" 2 Tim 4.20. Truly baffling! Maybe all these "leg-pullers" and Pentecostal charismatic wizards around today could teach Paul a trick or two?

    In our more naïve days we were in attendance at Spring Harvest Minehead (2001, I think) and my wife went into a teaching class for women which Mrs Virgo was holding. It was on "tongues", and she was trying to teach her to speak in tongues! Mrs Virgo kept prompting her "repeat after me, and so on! I thank God she didn't succumb! You CAN'T teach people to do this, it WAS a GIFT from above! Acts 2.4 tells us that "the Spirit GAVE them utterance." Tongues were a gift given by God for His own peculiar purpose in Acts 2.4-11, not so latter day charismatics could cause gross confusion!

    This so-called "healing and deliverance" that is being done in God's Name by the likes of those under discussion and others, such as Benny Hinn, I believe, can very easily be debunked from Scripture, unless of course you don't want it to be. Funny how faith healers eventually die? Perhaps, in part, it was for this reason that all but one of the apostles died martyrs deaths? John apparently didn't die a martyrs death, but some even dispute this, nevertheless it is fitting that his is the closing book of the NT!

    God bless

    Colin Ford.

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  24. Just re-read my comment, and realised I made a typo!
    It should read;
    "It truly baffles me that many sincere believers don't reject the silly notion that the miraculous apostolic gifts ARE for today."

    God bless!

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  25. In the context of false prophets, here is a prophecy for 2018 from the "Father heart" ministry (Russ and Kitty Walden). A group restoring the role of the Father in the church. I have seen it spreading inside the charismatic and word of faith type churches in recent years, adding an extra dimension. How would you evaluate this?

    This is the year that downturn and disappointment flee away and new hope and new life will become the reality you walk in. Come up higher," says the Father. "The on-ramp to upgrade is before you. Come off the surface streets of circumstance, situation and the opinion of men, or even your own opinion. Come out on the superhighway of My favor that is opening up before you," says God.

    Ref:http://elijahlist.com/words/display_word.html?ID=19459

    //Mike

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  26. I have not heard of Russ and Kitty Walden, but the following "prophecy" in the first person sounds very familiar:

    "Healing is yours. Provision is yours. Fulfillment, entitlement, upgrade and God-speed acceleration are the words going out over you at My command.."

    Simon Braker NAR "Prophet" based at Holy Trinity Church in Leicester makes very similar statements, also in the first person. The problem I find with these supposed promises is that they are based on what the followers of these so called "prophets" can get out of God.. blessings, provision, breakthrough etc. The promised "blessings" are always just around the corner, but they never seem to actually materialise! False promises and false hopes will ultimately end in disappointment, but they do tickle itching ears. 2 Timothy 4:3.

    Father Heart Conferences also seem to be quite the thing for building up false hopes. Trinity Life Church (Pentecostal AOG) in Leicester is also in on all this nonsense!

    God bless.

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  27. I assume you don't go to either of these two churches. Are they all like that these days in Leicester?

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  28. I used to attend both these churches Mike. They seem to be ecumenical in Leicester for the most part - I can't face going through all that again, so I fellowship with friends at home these days. God bless.

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  29. Unfortunately, I am approaching a similar point in life now, and I know of several others who also ended up that way.

    It would be interesting to know, if it was possible, what was/is the root cause of this shift. Perhaps there is a quiet Christian revolution going on and true born again Bible believers are voting with their feet, having given up trying to change things from the inside, or perhaps we have become selfish and intolerant to the point where we no longer care about accusations of schism so long as we don't have to suffer stupidity and religious entertainment.

    //Mike

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  30. It is blogs like this that really bring it home just how all pervasive apostasy is today, and not just in the so-called mainstream Christian church! I find it incredulous that the old time writers like C.H.Spurgeon, J.C.Ryle, B.W. Newton, and more lately A.W.Pink, wrote about how bad things were in their time! Whatever would they think if they were around today?

    I am not looking to be schismatic, and would happily fellowship with others that disagree with me on various things, but not with those of an ecumenical Rome bound spirit. For I know that if I said "I will only fellowship with those that believe exactly what I do", then I would be a church of one! Sometimes I would think, "maybe its all my fault, and I am over righteous about much, and too narrow minded". And then I ask myself serious questions on this, and time and again I find that I can't put up with "the stupidity and religious entertainment" as Mike so calls it.

    Having been in fellowship in an apostate Baptist Union Church, Charismatic Pentecostal Church, and a little longer in a very messy Messianic outfit, I have witnessed manifold error of many kinds! And it just seems (to me at least) that things are only getting worse and true believers are being increasingly marginalised, very often under the charge of being "unloving", even when telling the truth- the reply would be "touch not mine anointed"!

    God bless.

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  31. I have a question. I knew already about this. What I miss is that he also speaks to the demons and that,is,unschriptual. I,ma.doncerned avout someone, who is bying a lot of books from Derek Prince, also for selfdeliverance. I.did not have the chance yet to warn him. At.the moment 🙏🏼 For him becsue believe in lies as well not able to 🙏🏼 I told him is a lie. And encaurage to 🙏🏼 anyway. Did.did.not.heve response yet. Also.he suffer.from.nack,pain and more fysical issues. Don' t know if there is on this blog pple who 🙏🏼 Or a link to trustworthy prayerline. I had alos ENOUGH of false teaching where i've been treu that I did not know. Not long time ago left also a group where there also was heresy. Thanking God to preserve me. And His grace. Going still true restoration. Have one good sister and friend in Christ, in the Netherlands and 🙏🏼 If,possible,2 times a week if possible. Also went true a lot. But Beiveing in restoration and many 🙏🏼ers answerd. We don't give up. Thnank,you for,toko,g tile,to read. As well as the person I need and want to warn. Hope he understand English?

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